The Chupacabra - w/ Special Guest Ben Radford Part 1 (S8 E6)

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Welcome back to MVP's what the F***?

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Paranormal Podcast, where we talk about, well, everything the paranormal encompasses.

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So you ready?

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Let's f***ing do this.

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All right, what's up and welcome back everyone.

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This season we've been discussing all those creepy crawly cryptids that go bump in the night from monsters to mythical legends.

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This week, we're analyzing one of the world's best known beasts, the chupacabra oh, what chupacabra what was that?

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chupacabra, chupacabra, chupacabra chupacabra.

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He doesn't know how to say chupacabra tonight's episode is a very special one.

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Joining us this fine evening is Mr Benjamin Radford.

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If you are in any way familiar with the topic of cryptozoology, you've probably seen his name pop up more than a time or two.

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Ben is the deputy editor of Skeptical Enquirer Science Magazine and is the world's most prominent expert on the chupacabra phenomenon.

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He is an award-winning author of over 20 books, countless articles and has contributed to numerous other books and research.

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He is also one of the very few science-based investigators of the unexplained phenomena in the world.

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So, needless to say, if ben is talking about cryptids and monsters, you better listen up, because this man knows his shit.

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We can't thank him enough for taking the time out of his busy schedule to drop some knowledge on our dome pieces.

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So, without further ado, let's get into it.

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Wow, I'll take it, thank you.

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Yeah, sometimes people think that they're talking to chupacabras, and it's not.

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They're not, it's just us.

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Man fucking speak for yourself, Shit.

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I'm a beautiful man.

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Well, Ben, thanks for coming on here with us tonight, man, and discussing all this crazy stuff with us.

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Thanks for inviting me.

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It's good to be on.

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We are anxious to learn some things that we probably don't know about this topic out there.

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Uh, if you haven't heard of the chupacabra, it's known by many different, I guess, variations and and looks.

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Depending on where who you talk to, it looks different than other people claim it to be, but anyways, chupacabra means goat sucker in spanish, as far as I'm aware right that's correct.

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Don't google that, by the way.

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That's uh.

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If you're putting together a powerpoint, just go with chupacabra, don't Google learn from my mistakes, that's probably a good call.

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Just delete that out of my search bar now.

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So goat sucker I mean I'm assuming that they're referring to like it's vampire, like quality qualities where it sucks the blood of animals or something.

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Yeah, actually it's interesting.

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There's a, there's a whole uh, there's a mini debate, um, among, uh, among the very small niche of people who actually give a shit about this myself prominently um, it's, it's actually.

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It's actually interesting because, uh, in the tv show bon, there was a reference to a chupacabra and this has made some people think that the chupacabra actually dates back to the 60s or 50s or even earlier.

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But actually, if you look closely at that episode of Bonanza, it's referring to a whippoorwill bird.

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And according to whippoorwill oh, okay, yeah, according to legend, uh, the whippoorwill bird sucks milk, not blood milk out of goats, uh, which is why it's called the goat sucker.

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Um, so that's, that's sort of one of the.

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Sometimes you'll hear someone say oh well, the chupacabra was mentioned in Bonanza, different chupacabra, as weird as they may sound, actually different chupacabra.

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Well, what is it?

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That's a good question.

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Yeah that is a damn good question.

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Let's start at 101.

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Chupacabra 101.

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Okay, so the chupacabra, it's probably, by this point it's either probably the second or third best known cryptozoological monster in the world after Bigfoot.

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Bigfoot is, of course, the Marquis, and then you probably have Nessie, the Loch Ness monster, and then Chupacabra, sort of jockeying for second position, and then you have sort of tertiary monsters Jersey Devil, mothman, lizardman, you know, take your pick.

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And one of the things that I find interesting about the Chupacabra one reason I spent so much time researching it and writing a book on it and things like that is that, as was alluded to earlier, it's a vampire.

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Bigfoot is not a vampire.

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Nessie is not a vampire, mothman is not a vampire.

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The Chupacabra is specifically a vampire.

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Like a bat with wings.

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Well, this is what's cool about it, right?

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So that's what really intrigued me, because I'm like, well, you know, yeah, if it's a vampire, then it leaves dead bodies, right, that's kind of what they do, or presumably there should be some, you know, sort of forensic evidence of these sorts of things.

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So the morphology of the chupacabra is.

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I mean, we could spend a half hour on that specifically, but basically the chupacabra changed form dramatically.

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So this is another sort of fascinating angle to it, right, if you look at Bigfoot, the Bigfoot that people conceptualize and think about is pretty much the same as it was in 1970s, 1950s and so on.

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Right.

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Same thing with the other creatures, but the Chupacabra is different in that if you look online or in magazines or wherever else, you'll find quite a wide variety.

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So initially the sort of early Chupacabra was sort of a spiky-backed bipedal figure with sort of large alien wraparound eyes spikes down the back, but otherwise bipedal.

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It looked more or less like human form and then Sorry to cut you off, this was the Puerto Rican Chupacabra, like a.

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Puerto Rican in his hair.

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I spell Puerto Rican.

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Y'all know I love Mr Puerto Rican.

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I spell Puerto Rican in this Rican.

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Exactly.

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This is the original.

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Yeah, so this is the original Chupacabra.

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So it sort of breaks down to different stages.

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So the very original chupacabra was the one that I just described.

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Um, it was cited by a woman named madeline tolentino, uh in august of 1995, uh in in puerto rico.

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This is what she described.

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She didn't call the chupacabra because it was not known before that.

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She just said she saw this weird ass thing basically outside of her front door and other people sort of made up the name and attached it to that figure.

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So that version of Chupacabra basically went from 1995 to 2000.

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And what happened in 2000 was when all of a sudden we have the quadruped.

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This is where we have the chupacabras.

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Look like dogs and coyotes and mangy things like that so it started in the 90s yep 1995 you know that don't make no sense though it.

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It don't make no sense unless you, unless you sort of go back to the, the origin of it and sort of piece together, which which I did in my book tracking chupacabra um, I was trying to figure, okay, well, why did it appear in 1995?

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I mean, why not?

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Why not 1982 or 1975 or 1800?

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Um, so that was sort of the one of the key parts of the mystery.

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I was trying to look at the dead bodies, eyewitnesses, what did people say it was?

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What would you think it was?

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And then, and then, basically, after I had looked, I interviewed medical forensics examiners, uh, talking about, like you know, if an animal's attacked, there's basically what I call the illusion of vampirism, where an animal can look like it's been had his blood sucked out, but it actually hasn't.

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So there's like forensics involved, uh.

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And then I was trying to look back okay, well, where where did this, where did this thing emerge?

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You know, in in august of 95.

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So that's what.

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That was sort of the fun part of sort of piecing it all together I have a question.

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So you were saying you know your book tracking the chupacabra.

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If I'm not mistaken, that took five years of research, right?

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It did so how do you research an urban legend when there's no evidence of his of his existence?

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that's an excellent question.

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Um, basically, I began, uh, by assuming the premise that it was real, right, so I didn't know it was real.

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I I'm a skeptic, obviously, but I'm like, well, if these chupacabras and keep in mind, like Bigfoot, that can't just be one of them.

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I mean, there has to be a breeding population if they're actually animals.

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Yes, exactly.

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So I began my book by trying to well, I actually began my book by talking about the vampire aspect, and what did people think the vampires were?

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So I was looking, for example, at vampire legends in the 1800s in Europe and, as Melanie knows, part of my background is in folklore, so that was basically so.

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I began by sort of looking at, by placing the Chupacabra in the context of vampires generally.

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The reason I did that was because, if you look at the history of vampires typically, the reason that the vampires are created that is why people or societies think that vampires are real is because there's something weird that they can't explain.

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And, oh shit, who knows this vampire or witches?

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Witchcraft is another example, right?

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Yeah, you know some.

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You know that some lightning strikes a house or there's a stillbirth.

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Hundreds of years ago, in the pre-scientific era, they didn't know who to blame, so they blame the witch down the road, they blame a vampire, they blame some supernatural cause.

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And the same thing happened, I argue, in my book with the chupacabra, where you had these unexplained animal mutilations that they didn't have an explanation for.

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So they're like well, it must be that chupacabra thing, and so that's the connection that I make.

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Now, were any of these animal mutilations actually drained?

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of blood?

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No, they weren't, and that's one of the most common misconceptions.

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What you find is that, typically, when somebody finds an animal that they think has been drained of blood and keep in mind that in these cases, these aren't professionally autopsied, right.

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So what you find is that in most of the chupacabra victim cases, there will be an animal.

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The animal will almost look like it's sleeping.

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It's not ripped up, it's not bleeding out, there's not blood everywhere.

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It seems to just be sitting there by itself and if you look closely, there's two puncture marks on the neck.

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Well, of course, you're going to think vampires, because that's the classic vampire.

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Hell yeah, that's what I would think.

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Right, but in fact, what happened was that you know it was typically these are.

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This is ordinary predation.

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So these are dogs and coyotes that will attack at the neck, they'll crush the neck and then the animal will die of internal hemorrhaging.

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Who started it?

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Who started it?

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What happened was Let me tell you a story, jonathan.

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So here's the thing.

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So, just like you have to place the vampire, you have to place the chupacabra in the context of vampires.

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You have to place this predation in the context of the chupacabra.

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So there were some ordinary predation going on in Puerto Rico, but in this case, a woman named Madeline Tolentino, who you mentioned earlier, saw something weird.

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Oh my God, what is that?

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Oh my God, what is that?

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Oh my God, what is that?

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I actually interviewed her so she actually told two different versions of the story and if you're interested I'll parse them out later on.

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But basically the main version that she told was that it was broad daylight, she didn't remember the day, but she said it was the second week sometime, the second week of August of 95.

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And she was living with her mother.

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And I went back to the house where this whole encounter happened and she said that she was there with her mother and she looked out the window and it was broad daylight early afternoon.

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She looked out the window and she saw this creature that she had no idea what it was.

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She described it as, as I mentioned, sort of it had three fingers and toes, it stood like a human, it had big eyes, it had very distinctive spikes going down the spine, it had no nose, just two little slits and a small mouth.

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And she describes seeing this thing and, but she doesn't freak out, she's right, which I find odd, frankly.

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I had to shit myself.

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I'm not even.

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Yeah, I would speaking of shitting yourself, I shit my pants.

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I don't know why I ever took that chance.

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Speaking of shitting yourself, she is very You're wondering where this is going to go.

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Right, Speaking of shitting yourself?

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Let me tell you folks.

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So, Tolentino, in the interviews that she gave me, and also other ones I dug up that she gave in 96, she gave this very elaborate, detailed description.

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She said that she was looking for genitalia.

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What is she doing?

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I'm not under there.

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She's looking for my balls.

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Hey, if anyone's seen Decton's balls, let me know.

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They're about this, big but a lot tinier.

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They're like a pea or like a ball bearing or like if you've ever seen a mouse ball About half that size, incredibly tiny.

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They're like really, really tiny little girl balls If little girls had balls.

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So if you find little tiny girl balls that are so fucking tiny and shriveled up, let me know, because I'll put them right back up his scrotum.

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Obviously that's the first place, I'd look.

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Of course.

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Right, she's like hey, let me, is it a boy or a girl?

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I don't know Where's the junk?

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Right, look at his balls.

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Right, can you get a load of the chupacabra's balls?

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So she's describing copper's balls.

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So she's describing.

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So she, she says it was, uh, the word she used.

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Well, it was in spanish, but basically it was sealed that they had.

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No, it didn't have a, it didn't have a butthole, didn't have a dick, didn't have a vulva.

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It was just basically smooth and I mean, I don't know whatever, I don't want to get all weird on

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you.

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So I know that ship has sailed, but so anyway.

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So she's, she's talking, but she's talking to her, her mother, about this creature that they're apparently both seeing again just outside her window.

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And then she says, well, she said it skipped away, but then she said it kind of flew away and then she said it sort of hopped.

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So she gave slightly contradictory descriptions of how it left the area, and the very first people that interviewed her about this was a group of UFO buffs in Puerto Rico.

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So this is a monster and she's reaching towards alien buffs.

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Well, right, so there's a strong presence of UFO believers in Puerto Rico.

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So what happened?

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Was they heard about this?

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They're like this woman saw this weird thing, maybe it's alien related.

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So they went and interviewed her and they basically put their own spin on her sighting.

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So she never said it was alien, she just said that she saw this weird thing.

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So the group of UFO believers, including it, was led by a guy named Jorge Martin.

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He's the head of this local UFO group.

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He interviews her and he basically elicits these connections to extraterrestrials and UFOs.

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And that's why, later on, one theory is that when aliens were visiting Puerto Rico, rico, uh, it was an alien pet, like, like a dog or dog dog, that's like it ran out.

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They couldn't get it back.

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So the, the flying saucer showed up in puerto rico.

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Uh, the aliens are looking for somebody to put something up their butts, whatever.

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Uh, the chupacabra is their pet who, like, ran out the door when they weren't looking and escaped into the, into the forest.

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Oh no, I got to stomp the brakes and put the idea right through the fucking windshield.

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On that one, I'm sorry, I just can't.

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You can't picture an alien dog just no escaping into the force.

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Puerto Rico.

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No all smooth like a.

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Ken doll Buster got away out on another damn planet.

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We got track him down.

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Yeah, like what the fuck is this shit?

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I told you to put a collar on him.

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Right, right.

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Yeah, they can come all the way across the universe, but they can't keep track of their pet.

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Yeah, what kind of shit is this?

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So okay.

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So if you don't buy that theory he said advisedly then there's another theory, which is that no, no, it's not extraterrestrial, it's actually the product of top secret experiments gone wrong, like, like now, we're talking Now see, there you go this is.

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this is more of the group that's what I heard Like they had.

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They were just research monkeys on the Puerto Rican Caribbean Primate Research Center and that they somehow bounced and escaped.

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Right.

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So in Puerto Rico, the main places that's identified as the origin or the home of Chupacabra is called the El Uque Rainforest.

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The rumor is that somewhere deep in the jungle there is a top secret underground base and this is where the Chupacabra was being experimented on until there was a um, a hurricane, and so that that's.

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One of the stories is that the Chupacabra is this Frankenstein engineered, uh, military monster that the hurricane came through it, it blew out a window or you know, I don't know, did something, and this is when it escaped.

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It's fucking crazy.

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Just some straight island of Dr Monroe stuff happening.

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Exactly.

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Why do you think so many people think that it's real though?

00:18:18.005 --> 00:18:19.391
Well, there's a couple of things here.

00:18:19.391 --> 00:18:32.150
Part of the reason that some people believe in it is that you look at folklore, right, and so if you look at who believed in Chupacabra at first, this is primarily a rural thing.

00:18:32.150 --> 00:18:41.487
So this is where you have farms, you have ranchers, you have for lack of a better word not well-educated people not looking down on them, but just ranchers.

00:18:41.487 --> 00:18:49.039
And so what you find is that, for the ranchers and farmers, they had a reason to believe in Chupacabra because to them it was a real threat.

00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:52.275
If something is attacking your animals, you're given an explanation.

00:18:52.275 --> 00:18:56.496
If you're given a pseudo explanation, then you're going to pay attention to this.

00:18:56.785 --> 00:18:59.473
It was, as I mentioned, often the subject of tabloids.

00:18:59.473 --> 00:19:03.590
The mainstream newspapers in San Juan weren't reporting on it because they thought it was bullshit.

00:19:03.590 --> 00:19:04.752
One one.

00:19:04.752 --> 00:19:18.288
One way that that that sort of translated into the real world was that it tended to be more rural folks um, in many cases less educated who were sharing these, these stories about the chupacabras.

00:19:18.288 --> 00:19:22.664
You know, if you're, if you're a lawyer or a doctor in san juan, you don't give a shit.

00:19:22.664 --> 00:19:25.830
The chupacabra isn't, it's not relevant to you, right?

00:19:25.830 --> 00:19:37.847
If you're a rancher in rural Puerto Rico, you need to best you know, if you might only have, you know, 15 head of cattle and two goats and if they, if they die, that's your livelihood.

00:19:37.847 --> 00:19:51.769
The other thing that happened was that the reason that people believed in it was that there was local, local politician who was who was telling people that if you vote for me, I'll protect you from the chupacabra shut up?

00:19:51.809 --> 00:19:56.596
damn no way, fucking course, jesus.

00:19:57.219 --> 00:20:07.553
Hey, man, the opportunity's there, you know, dive on it right and and it sounds weird, but like using boogeyman and politics, this is standard procedure, of procedure.

00:20:07.553 --> 00:20:08.234
This has happened.

00:20:08.545 --> 00:20:09.589
It's happening right now.

00:20:09.865 --> 00:20:15.313
In this case he's like again he's playing to his base If you vote for me, I'll protect you from the Chupacabra.

00:20:15.313 --> 00:20:17.773
Like well, shit, you got my votes, damn.

00:20:21.249 --> 00:20:23.532
That's some straight mob shit.

00:20:23.532 --> 00:20:44.310
That has shown that when people have high anxiety or a lot of stress about whether it's politics or like a real threat, then if they can focus onto a specific target it will reduce their stress levels when they're thinking about their own government.

00:20:44.310 --> 00:20:54.294
So I can see how he could use this chupacabra to try and take their stress away from what's going on in politics onto this.

00:20:54.294 --> 00:20:57.398
It kind of gives them relief.

00:20:58.565 --> 00:21:01.934
Yeah, and even if you don't believe in it, you know there's no harm.

00:21:01.934 --> 00:21:04.980
I mean, yeah, maybe someone made fun of him, but he got reelected.

00:21:04.980 --> 00:21:08.471
He was the mayor of Canovas, I think, for like 20 years or something.

00:21:08.510 --> 00:21:09.413
That's insane.

00:21:09.713 --> 00:21:31.846
No, you're exactly right, and that's actually one of the reasons why Texas specifically has such a high number of chupacabra reports, for a reason you just mentioned, which is that when you're looking at animals with sarcoptic mane, typically what happens is that and this is actually due in part to global warming that's weird.

00:21:31.846 --> 00:21:33.866
Exactly here's how this works.

00:21:33.866 --> 00:21:41.710
Is that, basically, you have animals because here in the southwest and other places as well, they're getting warmer and warmer.

00:21:41.710 --> 00:21:46.973
Animals are living longer, whereas they would have died during the cold snaps, right?

00:21:46.973 --> 00:22:06.166
So an animal has mange and typically, because it loses its fur, its insulation, they would die off more quickly because during the harsh winters, but because the winters are getting milder, more of them are surviving, even with sarcoptic mange, and they're looking weirder and creepier because they're losing more and more hair.

00:22:06.166 --> 00:22:14.819
So there's actually a climate link to why there's more and more chupacabra reports over the last, say, 10, 15 years.

00:22:15.045 --> 00:22:19.872
Isn't that what they determined with the chupacabra specimen that they found?

00:22:19.872 --> 00:22:23.438
That Texas rancher found the Phyllis Canyon?

00:22:23.577 --> 00:22:24.179
Is that how you say it?

00:22:24.499 --> 00:22:29.665
Yeah, canyon, okay, canyon, is that how you say?

00:22:29.665 --> 00:22:30.067
Yeah, canyon, okay.

00:22:30.067 --> 00:22:30.307
And they?

00:22:30.307 --> 00:22:30.729
They had that.

00:22:30.729 --> 00:22:33.836
Uh, that chupacabra alleged chupacabra body, uh, dna tested at the tsu, didn't they?

00:22:33.836 --> 00:22:37.909
They did, yeah, they did and from what I understand it came back.

00:22:37.909 --> 00:22:44.407
It was like a a coyote, or a coyote mixed with a mexican wolf, or something yes, that was so.

00:22:44.448 --> 00:22:45.348
That's an interesting story.

00:22:45.348 --> 00:22:53.601
So I, I, so Phyllis Canyon was, as you mentioned, she was a ranger out in Cuero, texas, actually, for the TV show Monster Quest.

00:22:53.601 --> 00:22:59.157
They flew me out there to, to, to, to meet Phyllis Canyon and look at her chupacabra.

00:22:59.157 --> 00:23:06.138
And it was interesting because the night before in the hotel I was meeting with the TV show producers.

00:23:06.138 --> 00:23:13.930
I was like I can explain, I can explain this to you if you, if you want, if you want me to explain sort of the context of the chupacabra here, I'm happy to do it.

00:23:13.930 --> 00:23:17.376
Uh, he's like no, no, we already have the script.

00:23:17.376 --> 00:23:21.193
Just, you know, we call time 7 30.

00:23:21.756 --> 00:23:22.919
We'll pick you up, we'll take you there.

00:23:22.919 --> 00:23:29.970
I'm like okay, well, if you decide you want to actually understand this, let me know they're not interested in that.

00:23:30.009 --> 00:23:32.672
No, no, no no no we got it covered already.

00:23:33.868 --> 00:23:35.034
Yeah, we know the script.

00:23:35.034 --> 00:23:38.273
We already know what we want to say Thanks, but no thanks.

00:23:38.273 --> 00:23:39.416
You wrote a book, whatever.

00:23:40.164 --> 00:23:42.205
So, I'm like whatever.

00:23:42.205 --> 00:23:43.007
I mean, I'm used to this.

00:23:43.007 --> 00:23:43.807
I've done enough TV.

00:23:43.807 --> 00:23:46.869
I'm like whatever, Although I've done enough TV, and like whatever, Although I will.

00:23:46.869 --> 00:23:48.750
I will give a shout out to Josh Gates.

00:23:48.750 --> 00:23:54.414
I was on his show, actually Destination Truth or Destination Unknown.

00:23:54.414 --> 00:23:57.977
I was on both of them and he had me out there in Puerto Rico.

00:23:57.977 --> 00:24:00.318
It was actually a pretty good show.

00:24:00.318 --> 00:24:03.580
We ended up in a cave, knee deep in batshit.

00:24:04.260 --> 00:24:06.323
Oh guano, good times, good times.

00:24:08.467 --> 00:24:14.635
That was fun, um, but to his credit, uh, even though it was a little more sensationalized than it would have liked, it was actually a pretty good show.

00:24:14.635 --> 00:24:16.469
So shout out to him, but so so.

00:24:16.469 --> 00:24:19.414
So we for for phil's canyon, the one that you mentioned.

00:24:19.414 --> 00:24:22.286
So we go out there for the camera crew.

00:24:22.286 --> 00:24:23.387
They want you to meet somebody.

00:24:23.387 --> 00:24:24.209
Like five times.

00:24:24.209 --> 00:24:31.277
They're like knock on the door, pretend that we're not here, okay oh hi, never didn't see you there.

00:24:31.356 --> 00:24:32.018
No, do it again.

00:24:32.018 --> 00:24:36.586
So so, uh, so we meet with her and she's like do you want to see the chupacabra?

00:24:36.586 --> 00:24:39.855
I'm like, yeah, that's why we're here, obviously.

00:24:39.855 --> 00:24:48.196
So she takes us in from the living room, out the back, into, uh, the garage, and she opens up a freezer.

00:24:48.196 --> 00:25:05.592
So she opens up the freezer and, like, she takes out ice cream and then, like you know, some chicken wings, and then there's a severed dog head no, no wrapped in plastic don't, don't, oh yeah, that's my kind of lady dude okay, all right.

00:25:05.711 --> 00:25:08.838
Well, here's the severed coyote head.

00:25:08.838 --> 00:25:10.390
So she takes it over.

00:25:10.390 --> 00:25:14.455
So of course the camera wants her to take it out four or five times we get to that.

00:25:14.455 --> 00:25:17.875
So I actually got a chance to look at this thing and examine it.

00:25:17.875 --> 00:25:29.068
So she's telling the story and I'm not in the shot, but I'm hearing her talk and she's telling the camera guys and telling the producer.

00:25:29.068 --> 00:25:37.979
Well, you know I saw this thing and you know she talked about how she found this chupacabra and you know she cut the head off and it was so strange because it didn't.

00:25:37.979 --> 00:25:39.901
She's like it has no hair on it.

00:25:39.901 --> 00:25:41.061
It's the weirdest thing.

00:25:41.061 --> 00:25:48.029
She's like it can't be mange because mangy animals have some hair on it and she's like it doesn't have any hair.

00:25:48.029 --> 00:25:56.159
So I mean I'm hearing her say this and I'm looking at the and I'm like I see hair right here.

00:25:56.159 --> 00:25:59.853
It's literally like I I don't have any hair, but there's hair.

00:25:59.853 --> 00:26:07.421
I I can that thing that she's saying it doesn't have it obviously has it you just pan right over here if you don't right here.

00:26:07.481 --> 00:26:08.525
It's right fucking here.

00:26:08.525 --> 00:26:14.644
You don't need to zoom in, you can get it from that just man, we got to stick to the script, you know, right?

00:26:14.684 --> 00:26:14.746
we?

00:26:14.766 --> 00:26:16.509
got a script dude, so I'm like whatever.

00:26:16.509 --> 00:26:16.750
So.

00:26:16.750 --> 00:26:21.010
So we we wrapped up and then later on in as I talk about in in my book.

00:26:21.010 --> 00:26:36.358
So basically, what happened was that, um, it was halloween I forget what year, but it's halloween and as part of a Halloween special, a local TV station I thought it was San Antonio I think it was decided they were going to do a DNA test on the chupacabra.

00:26:36.358 --> 00:26:40.955
Ooh, I know right, I'm like finally some actual science.

00:26:40.955 --> 00:26:48.078
So they did the DNA test and, as was alluded to earlier, the answer came out coyote Big surprise.

00:26:48.585 --> 00:26:52.169
Phyllis didn't like that answer, so she's like well.

00:26:52.169 --> 00:26:54.355
She says well, I'm a doctor.

00:26:54.355 --> 00:26:56.352
Can you guess what kind of doctor she is?

00:27:18.345 --> 00:27:18.705
She's a naturopath.

00:27:18.705 --> 00:27:19.528
You fucking crazy man you sound insane.

00:27:19.549 --> 00:27:20.835
Do you realize that you should be medicated?

00:27:20.855 --> 00:27:21.678
elaborate what the fuck is that.

00:27:21.678 --> 00:27:22.160
Yeah, hold on, hold on.

00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:22.962
Yeah, pump the brakes.

00:27:23.083 --> 00:27:30.759
Someone needs to explain that the point is that she was making it sound like her background had some bearing on genetic analysis, which of course did not.

00:27:30.818 --> 00:27:35.907
No, no, it's a holistic doctor pretty much yeah, that's yeah, it's not.

00:27:35.948 --> 00:27:36.569
Is that what it is?

00:27:37.510 --> 00:27:53.232
they kind of mix some science and natural therapy and then they take some sort of like holistic approach to treating, rubbing essential oils on your body and eating chickpeas, kind of thing it's like step up from that.

00:27:53.292 --> 00:27:57.630
It sounds like a good time so.

00:27:57.891 --> 00:28:04.631
So she's like okay, well, I'm gonna pay for my own dna test, because you know the government is, you know she agreed to the dna test.

00:28:04.631 --> 00:28:06.655
It comes back and answers she doesn't like.

00:28:06.655 --> 00:28:10.087
She's like well, I'm gonna submit it again on my own, I'm going to pay for it.

00:28:10.087 --> 00:28:13.553
This time they're like it's your coyote, do whatever you want.

00:28:13.553 --> 00:28:15.097
So she sends.

00:28:15.097 --> 00:28:17.184
So she she's like this is bullshit.

00:28:17.184 --> 00:28:19.887
So she sends it off to another, another lab.

00:28:19.887 --> 00:28:23.392
She pays for this and it comes back the the same.

00:28:23.392 --> 00:28:28.417
At this point she's like well, maybe it's a coyote, but it's also a chupacabra.

00:28:28.718 --> 00:28:31.401
Oh, interesting, yeah, that checks, out.

00:28:36.464 --> 00:28:36.905
She wanted it to be.

00:28:36.925 --> 00:28:38.509
So, no matter what you said, it was going to be a chupacabra.

00:28:38.509 --> 00:28:38.909
Well, so I asked her.

00:28:38.909 --> 00:28:56.586
I said well, Phyllis, I mean I'm trying not to sound condescending, but you know I'm like well, Phyllis, what you did, what you did, I'm like okay, you admit that it's at least half coyote, but you say it's a chupacabra.

00:28:56.586 --> 00:28:58.026
How does that work?

00:28:58.026 --> 00:29:03.112
He's like well, I think the chupacabra is a coyote mixed with a wolf.

00:29:03.112 --> 00:29:15.212
I'm like Phyllis, here's the thing we already know what a coyote and a wolf mix is like.

00:29:15.212 --> 00:29:16.384
They're called coy wolves.

00:29:16.384 --> 00:29:26.682
They exist, they're not unknown to science, they don't suck blood and they're nothing like this mangy dog yet.

00:29:26.782 --> 00:29:29.106
And then she's like well, you know the, the animals.

00:29:29.106 --> 00:29:30.829
Uh, their eyes glow in photographs of course, so do mine.

00:29:30.871 --> 00:29:31.731
Thank you, thank you.

00:29:31.731 --> 00:29:32.814
So I'm like phyllis.

00:29:32.814 --> 00:29:36.967
Again, phyllis, here's the thing.

00:29:36.967 --> 00:29:41.875
Do you know why they only reflect in photographs?

00:29:41.875 --> 00:29:46.987
Here's why Because they're flashes, because there's a flash reflection.

00:29:46.987 --> 00:29:54.627
This is not a thing, and that's why it's only in photographs, because it's the same with everybody else.

00:29:54.627 --> 00:29:55.825
It's called red eye.

00:29:55.825 --> 00:29:57.586
This has been known.

00:29:57.586 --> 00:29:59.490
Phyllis, you didn't discover anything new.

00:29:59.490 --> 00:29:59.913
This has been known.

00:29:59.913 --> 00:30:00.758
Phyllis, you didn't discover anything new.

00:30:00.758 --> 00:30:03.364
This has been known for millennia.

00:30:03.364 --> 00:30:08.980
Well, again, I'm trying to be nice, but it's just sort of like uh, uh, but she, she was nice.

00:30:09.241 --> 00:30:35.859
Uh, I bought a t-shirt from her, I bought a beer cozy, which I have hold, on hold, on hold, on hold on, like chupacabra t-shirt and beer koozie yes, yes, yeah, so she's, she sold merchandising the shit out of that huh oh, yeah, she was she, she so that explains the second testing yeah, yeah, because, well, because she, she literally called herself the chupacabra lady, so she had a vested interest, literal financial.

00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:42.007
Yeah, she had financial gain yeah she's like's like so and I mean I don't blame her for it, but I mean it's like so.

00:30:42.007 --> 00:30:43.864
Yeah, I mean I, I she signed things for me.

00:30:43.864 --> 00:30:46.238
I mean she was nice so I wasn't going to argue with her.

00:30:46.238 --> 00:31:01.601
I mean I'm not there to like we're in a parade.

00:31:01.601 --> 00:31:04.932
Looks like right, that that is a known thing, you can google it, it's, it's real and it's nothing like what you found.

00:31:04.932 --> 00:31:10.146
And and besides that, she kept saying there's no, there's no hair on this, on this major chupacabra, and I can fucking see the hair.

00:31:10.146 --> 00:31:11.851
I'm like, look, it's right there.

00:31:11.851 --> 00:31:14.102
It's literally in the photograph you gave me.

00:31:14.102 --> 00:31:15.483
You're petting it.

00:31:15.483 --> 00:31:18.269
That's not a shadow that's hair.

00:31:18.548 --> 00:31:32.769
So, ben, before all the testing was done, right when you were there and you watched her pull, pull this head out, when you seen it were you just in the back of your mind like that's a fucking coyote, like did you know?

00:31:33.211 --> 00:31:34.776
I suspected pretty early on.

00:31:34.776 --> 00:31:46.820
But what was interesting was that again she in her mind, in phyllis's mind, she had these sets of reasons why it couldn't be a coyote, despite the genetics she's like.

00:31:46.820 --> 00:31:51.512
Well, but the mouth is different, because, for example, the mouth looks bigger than a coyote.

00:31:51.512 --> 00:31:56.480
Well, what happens is that that's actually a function of the sarcoptic mange.

00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:04.608
So when animals have mange, mange, the skin tightens and then that pulls back, yeah, the flesh around the mouth.

00:32:04.608 --> 00:32:08.826
So again all the things that she was like saying, well, what about this, what it is, what about this?

00:32:08.826 --> 00:32:10.750
I'm like this is all.

00:32:10.750 --> 00:32:11.861
This can all be explained.

00:32:11.861 --> 00:32:19.729
I mean, I'm not trying to be mr debunking skeptic here, but you gotta give me more than this, because this is clearly coyote yeah, also where.

00:32:19.749 --> 00:32:20.971
Also, where's the rest of the body?

00:32:20.971 --> 00:32:22.184
Why'd you just cut the head off?

00:32:22.740 --> 00:32:25.469
Well, she probably couldn't get their ice cream in there.

00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:32.824
Phyllis said that she found I think two, two, two chupacabras, so one of them, as I recall.

00:32:32.824 --> 00:32:35.912
So in her house there's lots of taxidermy.

00:32:35.912 --> 00:32:45.685
So I'm not a tax, I'm not a hunter, I mean whatever, but I she, yeah, you go in her house, she's, you know, antelope and deer and bear, and God knows it's such a.

00:32:45.685 --> 00:32:50.391
So at some point I think there was a chupacabra coyote in her house.

00:32:52.300 --> 00:32:53.265
You would just see that.

00:32:53.265 --> 00:33:04.931
Yeah, you would think, if she caught a chupacabra she would mount that bitch right, you know as soon as you walk in the door.

00:33:04.951 --> 00:33:06.775
That's probably why she had the head in the freezer.

00:33:06.775 --> 00:33:09.359
That makes sense, well, actually.

00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:11.663
So there's a funny story, just as a quick aside.

00:33:11.663 --> 00:33:20.296
So there was in not not in Cuero, texas, but in Blanco, texas there was a guy named Jerry Air and he actually taxidermied an alleged chupacabra.

00:33:20.296 --> 00:33:25.097
So I talked to him and I was like you know, you're an expert, right.

00:33:25.097 --> 00:33:28.128
He's like, yeah, I was like did you see anything unusual about this?

00:33:28.128 --> 00:33:29.045
I mean this.

00:33:29.045 --> 00:33:31.680
I'll be honest, this looks a lot like a coyote.

00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:44.481
He's like it looks like a coyote to me, but the guy that paid me to taxidermy it he wanted it to be, chupacabra.

00:33:44.501 --> 00:33:45.885
Hey, he's like I'm not, I'm not getting paid to identify it.

00:33:45.905 --> 00:33:46.929
I'm getting paid to stuff it.

00:33:46.929 --> 00:33:47.770
I saw the pictures of that thing.

00:33:47.790 --> 00:33:48.994
It looked creepy as shit, though.

00:33:48.994 --> 00:33:50.417
It did look creepy, yeah, but did he make it look that creepy?

00:33:50.417 --> 00:33:50.859
Uh, I think I don't.

00:33:50.859 --> 00:33:53.487
I didn't ask him whether he made it creepy, it was, it was kind of weird anyway.

00:33:53.487 --> 00:33:59.433
But so the guy that bought it was a creationist named, uh, john adolf.

00:33:59.433 --> 00:34:07.403
The reason he wanted the Chupacabra was because he has a creationist museum and he thought the Chupacabra disproved evolution.

00:34:07.884 --> 00:34:09.869
Oh, Smart guy huh.

00:34:10.112 --> 00:34:18.467
So his logic is well, those egghead scientists, those evolution scientists, they say the Chupacabra can't exist.

00:34:18.467 --> 00:34:21.266
Yet here it is Obviously obviously.

00:34:21.266 --> 00:34:24.023
If they're wrong about that, then they're wrong about evolution too.

00:34:24.023 --> 00:34:28.380
Oh yeah, of course of course, that makes sense why didn't I see it?

00:34:28.740 --> 00:34:29.141
I don't know.

00:34:29.141 --> 00:34:30.885
You know we're slacking.

00:34:30.885 --> 00:34:31.708
That's what's.

00:34:31.708 --> 00:34:32.931
That's the problem with us?

00:34:32.931 --> 00:34:41.452
Yeah, if there isn't any tangible evidence, should that preclude the possibility of its existence at all?

00:34:41.452 --> 00:34:52.547
Like, is there leeway for possibility just because, because you know, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, according to william wright, sure?

00:34:53.108 --> 00:34:54.653
no, I I would agree with that.

00:34:54.653 --> 00:34:58.702
I mean so the the chupacabra, it's, the again there's.

00:34:58.702 --> 00:35:02.250
There's a couple aspects to it that are distinctive.

00:35:02.250 --> 00:35:03.291
I've talked about a couple before.

00:35:03.291 --> 00:35:09.786
Again, it's a vampire, it's a vampire dog right, Well, again it.

00:35:09.826 --> 00:35:11.590
Sometimes, sometimes, no butthole.

00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:13.664
That's the most important thing.

00:35:13.664 --> 00:35:15.346
Doesn't have the chocolate starfish.

00:35:15.619 --> 00:35:19.286
Not only do we not have scat, we don't have bones, we don't even have tracks.

00:35:19.286 --> 00:35:21.543
This is really killing, right?

00:35:21.543 --> 00:35:27.099
Yeah, bigfoot is known for being blurry but also leaving tracks, yeah, so blurry.

00:35:27.099 --> 00:35:29.306
So let's say there's I don't know.

00:35:29.306 --> 00:35:31.431
Let's say there's 10 000 chupacabras out there.

00:35:31.431 --> 00:35:32.481
They have four legs.

00:35:32.481 --> 00:35:47.222
So, uh, every with every step, uh, every two steps, they're creating exponential, like there should be literally hundreds of thousands of chupacabra tracks across North America, south America or whatever.

00:35:47.222 --> 00:35:48.106
There's not even one.

00:35:49.201 --> 00:36:04.045
And besides that, again, once you recognize that their alleged prey are not in fact drained of blood, I mean, again, in the rare cases where somebody has actually gone and said, you know, you say this is a chupacabra victim.

00:36:04.045 --> 00:36:05.510
Yes, cut it open, there's blood there, right?

00:36:05.510 --> 00:36:07.608
So we know for a fact.

00:36:07.608 --> 00:36:10.047
So what are they drinking, right?

00:36:10.047 --> 00:36:13.460
So all these things sort of come together.

00:36:13.460 --> 00:36:36.074
But it's certainly true that in my research and as Melanie, as you know and you know, I've done this for a long time 20 years or so and I look into a variety of things curses, ghosts and all sorts of things and, for example, every now and then there'll be someone who will say well, you're just a debunking skeptic.

00:36:36.074 --> 00:36:37.655
You say Bigfoot don't exist.

00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:41.240
I said no, or ghost.

00:36:41.240 --> 00:36:43.346
I said I have never, ever said say bigfoot don't exist.

00:36:43.346 --> 00:36:43.967
I said no, or ghost.

00:36:43.967 --> 00:36:48.096
I said I have never, ever said the bigfoot can't exist.

00:36:48.096 --> 00:36:49.559
I have never, ever claimed the ghost cannot exist, right?

00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:49.599
I?

00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:53.347
I've searched all you want interviews, books, articles.

00:36:53.347 --> 00:36:54.489
I've never said that.

00:36:54.489 --> 00:36:55.713
Why haven't I said that?

00:36:55.713 --> 00:36:59.126
But the reason you bring up is like I can't that scientifically I don't know.

00:36:59.126 --> 00:37:02.653
We can't say you can't, you can't prove a universal negative.

00:37:02.653 --> 00:37:09.831
That being said, what I can say is that the all the evidence that I've seen points to these not existing.

00:37:09.831 --> 00:37:18.646
Tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, there could be better evidence, but as of now, I have looked at this and in some cases I've done field research.

00:37:18.646 --> 00:37:20.530
I mean, I've, I've, I've done it.

00:37:20.530 --> 00:37:24.653
Uh, yeah, I've spent, I've spent time in the jungles of nicaragua.

00:37:24.653 --> 00:37:27.762
I've, I've been in, I've traveled around south america.

00:37:27.762 --> 00:37:28.804
I spent five years on this.

00:37:28.804 --> 00:37:33.061
I'm not just some armchair debunker saying this is bullshit.

00:37:33.081 --> 00:37:36.887
I, I was right, you did the research and you had boots on the ground.

00:37:37.809 --> 00:37:44.969
And look, my position is always if I'm wrong, then show me.

00:37:45.300 --> 00:37:54.726
And, on that note, this seems like the perfect spot to take a break in our interview with Ben Radford, the world's foremost expert on the chupacabra.

00:37:54.726 --> 00:37:57.322
He literally wrote the book.

00:37:57.322 --> 00:38:04.652
Next week we'll finish our interview with Ben as well as share our final thoughts on this legendary beast.

00:38:04.652 --> 00:38:08.090
So until then, spoke at you later.

00:38:09.721 --> 00:38:10.523
Good night everybody.

00:38:11.545 --> 00:38:11.806
Bye.